Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 04:30:02 PDT From: Advanced Amateur Radio Networking Group Errors-To: TCP-Group-Errors@UCSD.Edu Reply-To: TCP-Group@UCSD.Edu Precedence: Bulk Subject: TCP-Group Digest V94 #181 To: tcp-group-digest TCP-Group Digest Tue, 23 Aug 94 Volume 94 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Apology Apology (fwd) CIX: Commercial Internet Exchange Dos DOS Computer et al... (2 msgs) Dos Computers (13 msgs) Enough (fwd) (2 msgs) subscribe unsubscribe Send Replies or notes for publication to: . Subscription requests to . Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu. Archives of past issues of the TCP-Group Digest are available (by FTP only) from UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives". We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 18:38:27 -0500 (CDT) From: ssampson@sabea-oc.af.mil (Steve Sampson) Subject: Apology To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu I must apologize to the group now that my private mail has been made public. I guess the schools don't teach privacy anymore, or at least those in Texas. My comments were to the effect that it is in each of our power to unsubscribe when we are no longer interested in the conversation. When a member decides to ruin the conversation by complaining that he isn't interested, it gets my gander. I'm sorry my private mail has been published, and apologize to the group. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 22:23:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Kurt Freiberger Subject: Apology (fwd) To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu (TCP-Group Mailing List) Forwarded message: > From: ssampson@sabea-oc.af.mil (Steve Sampson) ... > I guess the schools don't teach privacy anymore, or at least those in Texas. No request for privacy was in the message; And by the unprovoked personal attack, the privilege was deemed void. > My comments were to the effect that it is in each of our power to unsubscribe > when we are no longer interested in the conversation. When a member decides > to ruin the conversation by complaining that he isn't interested, it gets my > gander. I'm sorry my private mail has been published, and apologize to the > group. A very interesting interpretation. A new vista to the specific terms used. And, I suppose, that I am not allowed to speak that the current OS war in its Nth incarnation should be terminated? Has anyone else been attacked to asking that the thread be terminated? Take a pill. Or unsubscribe. Enough. Faugh. -- # Kurt Freiberger, WB5BBW Dept. of Computer Science, TAMU # # Internet: kurt@cs.tamu.edu | "Even MY hypocrisy has its limits." # # AuralNet: 409/847-8607 | # # AMPRNet: wb5bbw@wb5bbw.ampr.org | - "Doc" Holliday, Tombstone # # Disclaimer: Not EVEN an official document of Texas A&M University # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 09:22:00 -0000 From: mikebw@bilow.bilow.uu.ids.net (Mike Bilow) Subject: CIX: Commercial Internet Exchange To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu * Original to: tcp-group@ucsd.edu CC'd to: karn@qualcomm.com On 94 Aug 23 at 05:56, Phil Karn wrote: PK> This is what internetting is all about -- different PK> machines running different operating systems and different PK> applications over different networking media, all PK> communicating easily and transparently with each other PK> because they all speak a common set of "middle layer" PK> protocols. While we're on this subject of the desirability of everything talking to everything, I would like to raise the issue of the Commercial Internet Exchange, CIX, pronounced "kicks." CIX was originally created as a consortium of Internet access providers who would route among themselves, thus bypassing the famous NSF-Net Acceptable Use Policy restrictrictions on commercial use of the Internet. On July 14, the CIX Board of Directors voted to enforce routing restrictions against non-members of CIX. The requirement for membership in CIX, basically, is that you have to pay them $7,500 per year or $750 per month, plus additional fees in some cases. In particular, CIX states the following: ********** BEGIN QUOTE ********** Clarification of Service Provision ---------------------------------- It has always been CIX policy to provide services only to its membership. Routing Services are provided only to Regular Members. Requirements for Membership --------------------------- Affiliate Membership is open to any individual or organization. Regular membership is open to any organization selling IP transit. There is no geographic restriction on membership. Regular members provide CIX Routing Services to any individual or organization who is NOT eligible for regular membership. Regular members may NOT provide CIX Routing Services to any individual or organization who is not a regular member but is eligible for regular membership (i.e., is selling IP transit). Definition of Seller of IP transit ---------------------------------- An individual or organization is selling IP transit if they accept IP traffic from another individual or organization and route it to a different individual or organization in exchange for a fee. An individual or organization is NOT selling IP transit if it is selling only timesharing services on a system that offers IP connectivity as part of the time sharing service (e.g "BBS Systems" or "Shell Account Systems"). E.g. An individual or organization who operates a computer on which people log in directly and are able to receive Internet access is NOT required to join unless they are ALSO selling IP transit. An individual or organization who sells one or more dialup PPP/SLIP accounts IS required to join to receive membership services. An individual or organization who sells dialup PPP/SLIP access ONLY to its own systems (i.e., who does NOT transit IP packets outside its internal networks) is NOT required to join. A University that provides IP transit only to its students, faculty and researchers is NOT required to join. A University that provides IP transit to alumni, local businesses or other organizations not directly participating in the University's educational mission IS required to join. 51% Rule -------- No exceptions to the requirement of membership are made based on an organization's size, non-profit status, or other criteria. This policy applies to all organizations, including so-called "federations" and co-operatives. Any organization eligible for membership whose parent organization owns 51% or more of its voting stock does not need to join separately, but may benefit from its parent's membership. Any organization eligible for membership who does not have a parent organization owning 51% or more of its voting stock shall be treated as a separate organization and be required to join to receive member services. Enforcement of Policies ----------------------- Historically, the Association has relied on the voluntary compliance and support of its membership to ensure that member services were provided only to Association members. Unfortunately, it has become clear that this voluntary compliance is no longer working and that the Association will need to begin actively ensuring that its services are provided only to members. The Board recognizes that some organizations who might have to correct their membership status as a result of any confusion relating to membership requirements may require time to do so in a timely manner. Therefor, the Board will delay additional enforcement of these policies until November 1, 1994. Additionally, the Board will delay enforcement of the 51% rule for subsidiaries until January 1, 1995. The Board has contracted with the current manager of the CIX Router Service, to provide the additional resources necessary to enforce Association policies. These will include investigating reports of policy violations and maintaining a set of route filters as necessary to ensure that member services are not accidentally provided to non-members. When the Association determines traffic to be in violation of CIX policies, that traffic will be filtered. Organizations attempting to circumvent CIX policies, such as attempting to disguise the resale status of their customers by subnetting a single network number and sharing its use among multiple customers, will be subject to appropriate enforcement of Association policy which may include the entire network being filtered even though the majority of its users are in compliance. The Association encourages the assignment of distinct network numbers to different organizations and the use of BGP4 for route announcement. This allows the Association to filter only the minimum necessary to ensure compliance with its policies. ********** END QUOTE ********** In my opinion, this seems like a return to the early days of telephone service, where each telephone company refused to allow its subscribers to call the subscribers of a competing telephone service without payment of a fee. The government finally stepped in to put a stop to that, for obvious reasons, and it looks like we might have to go through a similar period of chaos soon on the Internet. I am not sure what to make of this change in CIX policy. It certainly seems to me to have all of the trappings of a "combination in restraint of trade," although applying such a principle to the Internet may prove to be a daunting prospect. My guess is that CIX and its members are going to be sued through the floor if they actually try to implement this, with claims starting at breach of contract and working their way up to antitrust. What seems clear is that we may shortly have two separate and disconnected Internets, one comprised of those CIX members and their subscribers, and one consisting of everybody else. Subscribers to one will have no connectivity with the other, and vice versa. My understanding is that several major providers, such as JvNC Net, will be boycotting CIX. A more immediate problem is that many organizations, both for-profit companies and non-profit organizations, have been allowing Amprnet to piggyback on their existing Internet service, often requiring a nominal fee to cover their own added expenses. Many public colleges, at least in this area, are required by law to provide library and computer network access services to local citizens, and to recover expenses. Several important developments. such as AXIP, depend on this goodwill. Under the new CIX policy, my reading is that a company or a university who buys service from a CIX member may be prohibited from allowing AXIP or similar Amprnet connectivity unless the company or university itself pays the CIX membership fee. Understandably, no organization is likely to pay $7,500 per year in order to keep their Amprnet link open. Simply providing domain name service, in such cases, would seem to come under the prohibition. -- Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bilow Computer Science | +1 401 944 3937 (voice) | Michael S. Bilow Forty Plantations | +1 401 944 7966 (fax) | President Cranston, RI 02920-5554 | +1 401 944 8498 (BBS) | mikebw@ids.net (Internet) United States of America | N1BEE @ KA1AZ.#SORI.RI.USA.NOAM (AX.25 non-business) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't usually do this, but: ALL COMMENTS, OPINIONS, AND STATEMENTS CONTAINED IN THE ABOVE MESSAGE, EXCEPT WHERE EXPRESSLY DESIGNATED AS QUOTED MATERIAL, ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AUTHOR OF THIS MESSAGE, AND ARE NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE OPINIONS OF ANY OTHER PERSON, COMPANY, OR ORGANIZATION. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 09:25:39 From: kz1f@RELAY.HDN.LEGENT.COM Subject: Dos To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu Where I may be partly to blame for this latest wave of activity, let me respond. In the early days of radio, the transmitting was done via a spark generator. This progressed into vacuum tubes, regen receivers, hetrodyne receivers super-hetrodyne receivers, transistors, IC's, VLI curcuits etc. WHY??? Because each ADVANCEMENT meant better design, more functionality, lower cost(??) etc. Because I use a solid state radio doesnt mean I hate vacuum tubes. I use it becuase, for what I want done, it works better. I have a 486/50 at home, I could run windows on it, I could run dos on it...I run OS/2 on it. WHY? Because, for what I do with it, it works better. As it happens, I make my livelihood designing and writing workstation / PC software. What the general public, that is, the buying general public, want can't be written in 640k of memory. Sure, one can get a memory extender software and, thru much gritting and mashing of teeth, write something that actually is larger than 640k. Even Microsoft got tired of trying to do that and wrote DOS 7.x aka Windows 4.0 kernel. Essentially a 32 bit multitasking OS. Sure there are some all agash waiting for it to hit the street. There are others that smile and continue writing 32 bit linear programs, perhaps even graphical, on their OS/2, NT, Linux etc OS's. Does that mean we all hate DOS...NO, it means that for what we are doing, DOS doesn't do it as well as (fill in the blank). Now, how I think this whole thing started was that I speculated that no one was probably going to be writing rfc 1159 for xNOS. Enhancements would probably be seen in the Linux, OS/2 etc versions of tcpip over rf. This presents something of a problem, since it will be even more likely that smtp mail will be arriving in the future that xNOS will throw-up all over. That there will be ip based traffic over the given freq that xNOS won't understand. This is not a problem for the person running a MIME compliant mailer, its a problem for the one thats not. As I said in an earlier mailing, 'going forward is a good thing.' As far as it being a 'problem', it is not the fault of the person with the MIME compliant mailer or WEB compliant program. There is no blame to be assessed here, its just a fact of life. The problem with a monolithic program like xNOS is it's tough to add/replace pieces. For those that feel intimidated or frustrated by this, why not assume technical lead on xNOS and step up to the 'I'll write the code' plate? Figure out how to put all the latest technology into a 640k program. And I certainly didnt intend to start a violent, verbally abusive flame. Walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 13:20:29 +0000 (GMT) From: ehall@c3tmp1.monmouth.army.mil (Erik M. Hall) Subject: DOS Computer et al... To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu Hi y'all...I believe this whole DOS/on-DOS issue is relatively unimportant. One thing we are all agreed upon is is that if you are running a network switch, or hub, or router, then DOS is useless. Linux would be a good choice for this. BUT, for most of us hams who just want connectivity to the rest of the world, DOS is fine. It works. These people don't need the net smarts, they can connect to a router to handle that for them. For instance: If you've got a business and want to set up a company-wide network, do you insist that a Unix box on every desk is the only way to go? Or do you put a Cisco router on everyone's desk? No, its just not necessary. Besides (and please don't flame me for this one) do we really want everybody to have the network routing and operations capabilities? Not every ham is capable of setting up a Unix system to run TCP/IP properly. People make whole careers out of just that. Look at what happened recently with the UCSD name server; it was taken down because of improperly registered hosts. That does NOT make for a reliable network. I believe that, all in all IMHO, we should have a dedicated nationwide WAN backbone run by people experienced in Unix and TCP/IP and AX.25. Then MANs local in each city (or however you wish to divide up the US geographically). People would then have connectivity from their machine into a local MAN on a common (or not) frequency. That way if random Joe Ham configures his machine wrong, it won't kill the whole net. DOS would find a good home in these user access machines, since all they'll be doing is communicating with a MAN node and not have to worry about name serving, packet forwarding, or anything else. -Erik -- Erik M. Hall - N2NRP ehall@c3tmp1.monmouth.army.mil US Army CECOM (908) 544-4968 AMSEL-RD-ST-WA-N DSN 995-4968 Ft. Monmouth, NJ 07703 "Its all about soul..." -BJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 14:57:58 From: kz1f@RELAY.HDN.LEGENT.COM Subject: DOS Computer et al... To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu >Hi y'all...I believe this whole DOS/on-DOS issue is relatively unimportant. Not to belabor the point but its not simply a router issue. I think what would put the xNOS (DOS) user communitee at ease is for someone to take ownership of xNOS on the DOS platform. This is because the rest of us are going to be using rfc1159 and/or setting up Gopher and/or WWW servers etc etc. If no one is going to pick up the code and carry it forward these versions are destined to the same place as CP/M and Word for DOS (both work fine, just not with anything else). This won't happen overnight but it will happen. We've already seen nastyisms over having a xNOS smtp client get MIME mail. In this respect, xNOS on DOS may make a respectable router since all it will be doing is moving ip packets around with no user (client) code running, I dont think anyone is afraid of or intimidated by OS/2 at $49. or Linux at $0, I think they're afraid of being abandoned. Walt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 08:04:13 From: jks@giskard.utmem.edu Subject: Dos Computers To: "TCP digest" Enough!!!???!!! > From: "Klarsen" > I find it interesting that many of you on these Internet ham > radio "echos" are very hostile to the Disk Operating System and the > computers that can use that operating system. I think for the most part > the guys most vocal about the evils of DOS are using computers bought for > them to use by others, often the tax payers of the state or the country. This is pure vitriolic slime! Karl.... Get your head out of the the sand! Rather than spending your time proving to us that you are a reactionary know-nothing with multiple axes to grind, please consider the following: Many of the "32-bit" folks use the non-reentrant interupt handler you refer to as DOS (actually MS-DOS-- Mickey$oft dos not own the name "DOS", there are others!) for low level grunt work on their boxes, because of the direct and largely unrestricted access it allows to the hardware. We all agree, DOS HAS some uses. It will remain in use on 8088/86/186/ and 286 machines for a long time, but even M$ has made it clear they are leaving 16 bit M$-DOS behind. ^^^^ Many users of advanced operating systems on these lists have Intel based boxes purchased at considerable expense to themselves. Taxpayers provided me with none of my current equipment (it came out of money I earned with my own sweat, time, and tears.) I have a Mac on my desk at work, forced down my throat by the buying policy of the institution. The Mac was procurred for me from departmental funds generated by contract work for a large pharmaceutical concern -- it gets used 1-2 hours a week for word-smithing... It's a cute/friendly box, but clumsy.... a little like handling a school bus with a Triumph Spitfire engine in it. The 486DX-33 OS/2 box (I paid for out-of-pocket!!) gets 30 hours a week worth of heavy "productivity" use and is online 7 days / 24 hrs doing network duty. I could not do that when I used M$DOS -- to unstable. You can post your insults to abUseNet groups like alt.barney.die.die.die or alt.flame.dev.null, but please don't waste tcp-group bandwidth continuing this thread! Jack Spitznagel KD4IZ Rancho Malario Tennessee (901) 488-6242 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 09:55:12 -0400 From: Jim De Arras Subject: Dos Computers To: stuart > > I find it interesting that many of you on these Internet ham > > radio "echos" are very hostile to the Disk Operating System and the > > computers that can use that operating system. I think for the most part > > the guys most vocal about the evils of DOS are using computers bought for > > them to use by others, often the tax payers of the state or the country. > > lots cut out..... > > Thanks Karl ! A good artical realy needed saying. > > We need to put this artical in at least once a month! > so not to forget. > > 73's Rogan sm0kjd > I try to stay out of this war, but the above suggestion is too simplistic. There are a number of real operation systems that can run on that same PC hardware, now. A large part of the resistance is simply resistance to change. DOS is not an OS, it's a boot loader. It's fine for what it does, but it simply is not up to real multi-tasking/multi-threaded work. The current crop of PC hardware is very much up to multi-tasking/multi-threaded work, and it's a shame to restrict it so much with DOS. Jim (using a UNIX based system he paid for himself) De Arras WA4ONG. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 07:45:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyndon Nerenberg Subject: Dos Computers To: stuart On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, stuart wrote: > Thanks Karl ! A good artical realy needed saying. > We need to put this artical in at least once a month! > so not to forget. In other words, "stop experimenting, because I {cannot afford, can't be bothered} to keep up." This attitude scares me to no end. What will your argument be when the governments of the world abolish Amateur Radio completely because it is no longer contributing to the state of the art (thus justifying it's existence)? --lyndon VE7TCP/VE6BBM Put the EXPERIMENTAL back in the Amateur EXPERIMENTAL Service! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:29:56 +0100 From: "Brian A. Lantz" Subject: Dos Computers To: TCP digest On Mon, 22 Aug 1994 jks@giskard.utmem.edu wrote: > ..... We all agree, DOS > HAS some uses. It will remain in use on 8088/86/186/ and 286 machines for a > long time, but even M$ has made it clear they are leaving 16 bit M$-DOS > behind. ^^^^ Jack hits the nail on the head that many of us have been dancing around. It is NOT us that is going to orphan MS-DOS, it is MICROSOFT! If you lived in a city and were told by some that the city was in danger, you MIGHT think about leaving. But if you were told that the Mayor, the City Council, and all of the elected leaders had LEFT because of the danger, you'd be reckless to not consider leaving. Well, gang, Mayor Bill has already declared MS-DOS an abandoned house, with the wrecker to come next year. You will need to consider whether your residence will be Chicago, NT, OS-2, Linux, FreeBSD, Novell DOS, etc. Simply keeping the status quo is ignoring the danger ALREADY told by Mayor Bill. So why are those living in Bill's city blaming us, who heard the warning and moved? We're just getting on with our lives... And Walt, WELL SAID! ----------------------------------------------------------- Brian A. Lantz/KO4KS brian@lantz.cftnet.com REAL PORTION of Microsoft Windows code: while (memory_available) { eat_major_portion_of_memory (no_real_reason); if (feel_like_it) make_user_THINK (this_is_an_OS); gates_bank_balance++; } ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:07:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Klarsen Subject: Dos Computers To: Lyndon Nerenberg On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, stuart wrote: > > > Thanks Karl ! A good artical realy needed saying. > > > We need to put this artical in at least once a month! > > so not to forget. > > In other words, "stop experimenting, because I {cannot afford, can't be > bothered} to keep up." I didn't say that Lyndon, you did. > > This attitude scares me to no end. What will your argument be when the > governments of the world abolish Amateur Radio completely because it is > no longer contributing to the state of the art (thus justifying it's > existence)? Where have you been for the past 40 years? The way things are now the experts who happen to be hams hand down nice things like NOS to us so we can play tcp/ip. But they have a family to feed so they sell 60 hours a week of their time to a business. Are you so above the rest of the world you don't see this? > --lyndon VE7TCP/VE6BBM > > Put the EXPERIMENTAL back in the Amateur EXPERIMENTAL Service! > -karl k5di ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:35:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Klarsen Subject: Dos Computers To: Bruce Perens On Sat, 20 Aug 1994, Bruce Perens wrote: > I write shareware for DOS systems, but they are palmtops. > I guess I would get hostile if you wanted me to write a networking > system for DOS. It's a poor vehicle for the task and would be painful > to do. Then be sure you don't get into a position to must do or walk... > > Like many other programmers with an investment in 386 hardware and no > real reason to stick with a Microsoft OS, I put Linux on my "DOS" machine. No problem with that. Still an Intel cpu but it smells a bit like the unix you learned to love. > That made it a lot easier to work with. My wife runs Windows on her > computer - she's not a programmer and curls her lip at command-line > interfaces. My wife is the same way. She doesn't PLAY with a computer, she USES her computer. > > I'm sorry, but those DOS systems are doomed to remain running packet > terminal programs to connect to more sophisticated systems or at best > NOS. The programmers are going to insist on Windows at a minimum. I hope so Bruce. But who will port JNOS to a pure windows enviornment? > Last week, Fry's had a "loss-leader" sale. Connor 1 Gigabyte disks for > $500. There's not that much motivation to keep one's computer small > any longer. > > Bruce AB6YM > Yes I wish I could spare $500 for a big HD. My wife Juanita says "how big is my HD?". I say 120 mbyte. She says what the Hell do I need 1000 mbytes for? Discussion closed....hi -karl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 17:17:38 +0100 From: "Brian A. Lantz" Subject: Dos Computers To: TCP digest And as one final note on this topic, I found it coincidental that the lead story on the cover of today's issue of COMPUTERWORLD ("Few mourn DOS decline") states that not only is Microsoft giving up on MS-DOS, but it seems that Novell DOS will be history, too. Quotes person after person who says, basically, "No more MS-DOS, so what!". To be fair, on the other side, look at Dvorak's column in today's PC Magazine. He quotes figures from a research firm that show that 6 of the top ten most widely used software applications are DOS-based. Is there life left in MS-DOS? Depends on who you talk to, now doesn't it! ----------------------------------------------------------- Brian A. Lantz/KO4KS brian@lantz.cftnet.com REAL PORTION of Microsoft Windows code: while (memory_available) { eat_major_portion_of_memory (no_real_reason); if (feel_like_it) make_user_THINK (this_is_an_OS); gates_bank_balance++; } ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 21:13:49 EDT From: ron@chaos.eng.wayne.edu (Ron Atkinson N8FOW) Subject: Dos Computers To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu Can someone send me a message when the DOS arguement is over and packet radio is discussed again so I know to start reading the group again? Ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 23:22:04 +0100 From: "Brian A. Lantz" Subject: Dos Computers To: Ron Atkinson N8FOW On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, Ron Atkinson N8FOW wrote: > Can someone send me a message when the DOS arguement is over and packet > radio is discussed again so I know to start reading the group again? Or how about TCP/IP? ----------------------------------------------------------- Brian A. Lantz/KO4KS brian@lantz.cftnet.com REAL PORTION of Microsoft Windows code: while (memory_available) { eat_major_portion_of_memory (no_real_reason); if (feel_like_it) make_user_THINK (this_is_an_OS); gates_bank_balance++; } ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 21:00:38 -0700 From: myers@bigboy73.West.Sun.COM (Dana Myers ) Subject: Dos Computers To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:35:35 -0600 (MDT) > From: Klarsen > Subject: Re: Dos Computers > To: Bruce Perens > Cc: TCP digest > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > > > > On Sat, 20 Aug 1994, Bruce Perens wrote: > > > I write shareware for DOS systems, but they are palmtops. > > I guess I would get hostile if you wanted me to write a networking > > system for DOS. It's a poor vehicle for the task and would be painful > > to do. > > Then be sure you don't get into a position to must do or walk... > > > > > > Like many other programmers with an investment in 386 hardware and no > > real reason to stick with a Microsoft OS, I put Linux on my "DOS" machine. > No problem with that. Still an Intel cpu but it smells a bit like > the unix you learned to love. "still an Intel CPU" ?? Arg!! Now the Intel bashing war will have to start!!! Arg! By the way; running Solaris 2.4 here, I tend to forget I'm using just an Intel CPU. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 22:56:44 -0700 From: Phil Karn Subject: Dos Computers To: klarsen@kazak.NMSU.Edu > I hope so Bruce. But who will port JNOS to a pure windows enviornment? Why bother? Several TCP/IP stacks are already available for Windows; FTP Software's package and the excellent shareware Trumpet Winsock among them. Works great on those rare occasions when I am forced to use Windows. For me this is pretty much limited to accessing America Online, which speaks a special application protocol over TCP/IP and for which only Windows and Mac clients are available; no X versions are yet available. Yet even if I had a reason to want a Windows networking application to talk TCP/IP over packet radio I could use Trumpet Winsock without modification. That's because I have a dedicated machine running NOS that handles radios and dialup SLIP connections, and it connects to the Windows (and UNIX) machines via Ethernet. This is what internetting is all about -- different machines running different operating systems and different applications over different networking media, all communicating easily and transparently with each other because they all speak a common set of "middle layer" protocols. In 1985 I chose to start implementing TCP/IP in what became NOS because I knew that TCP/IP was going to be a winner in the "real world", and that many other implementations would eventually appear and be within reach of the average amateur. NOS was a way to quickly bring multitasking TCP/IP to the average ham with the primitive computers and operating systems we had available at the time. Now that "native" TCP/IP is available for just about every modern platform and OS, there is little reason to port NOS to these platforms, or to port big existing applications over to NOS from these platforms. But NOS still has a role in doing what it does best - acting as a low-end standalone IP router with amateur packet radio capabilities, and as a convenient base for protocol experimentation and development. I never intended it to be the only TCP/IP package ever used by amateurs, and despite my pride of authorship it bugs me to see it used inappropriately. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 22:58:01 -0700 From: Phil Karn Subject: Dos Computers To: brian@lantz.cftnet.com >To be fair, on the other side, look at Dvorak's column in today's PC >Magazine. He quotes figures from a research firm that show that 6 of the >top ten most widely used software applications are DOS-based. Hell, even Windows is DOS-based, if you consider that you first boot DOS before you bring up Windows. DOS is simply the second-stage bootstrap loader! Phil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 12:42:22 DST From: Martin W Freiss Subject: Dos Computers To: lyndon@canada.unbc.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg) > > Thanks Karl ! A good artical realy needed saying. > > > We need to put this artical in at least once a month! > > so not to forget. > > In other words, "stop experimenting, because I {cannot afford, can't be > bothered} to keep up." If the use of newer and bigger tools were all it takes, research would progress much faster. Processing power does not help in solving the underlying networking problems we have now. The experimental spirit of ham radio is a function of the mind first, and the computer used for IP is just a tool. Any tool that does the job is the right tool for that job, be it called CP/M, Windows or Linux. -Martin (and now, lets all flame me for using a TRS80 Model I with an S100-bus Z80-SCC card for packet :-)). -- Martin Freiss | R&D computer center | freiss.pad@sni.de Siemens Nixdorf Infosystems | Dept. MR OI 4 | NIC MF194 Paderborn, Germany | Phone +49 5251 8 15642 "The average pointer, statistically, points somewhere in X." -Hugh Redelmeier ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:25:33 -0700 From: brian@nothing.ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor) Subject: Enough (fwd) To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu In article <9408220243.AA11187@nadc.nadc.navy.mil> you write: >Might I remind you all that this group is retransmitted in many >places to AMPR. Please keep it down. And might I remind YOU that this is an internet discussion list for people actively involved in advanced amateur radio networking. Emotions fly high at times among creative people; strong language is occasionally necessary to express strong emotions. If someone is gatewaying this list over amateur radio, it is HIS responsibility to ensure that he doesn't transmit any language that he might regret later. It is not the charter of this group to respect his restraints. I don't mind that people retransmit this mailing list to other places, perhaps via amateur radio. But doing so is at their own risk. As 'moderator' of this list, I encourage the free interchange of thoughts and ideas. I do not require that people censor themselves, although I will remind all that reason often prevails when shouting fails. Speak as you see fit. - Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 08:35:51 BST From: Martin Lines Subject: Enough (fwd) To: tcp-group@UCSD.EDU Brian wrote: >And might I remind YOU that this is an internet discussion list for >people actively involved in advanced amateur radio networking. >Emotions fly high at times among creative people; strong language is >occasionally necessary to express strong emotions. May I point out that there are no age restrictions on who may subscribe to Internet etc. Whilst I appreciate there are far worse corners of the Internet there can be no real justification for some of the language I have seen. I suppose I will receive all sorts of language in flames for this one. mlines@sni.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 12:13:23 -0700 From: dalex@eskimo.com (Dave Alexander) Subject: subscribe To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu subscribe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 94 12:34:31 EDT From: RobertkC@aol.com Subject: unsubscribe To: tcp-group@ucsd.edu unscribe tcp-group RobertkC@aol.com unjoin tcp-group RobertkC@aol.com ------------------------------ End of TCP-Group Digest V94 #181 ******************************